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Post by Sarzy on Apr 1, 2022 15:47:53 GMT
She wrote a long essay on the subject on her blog, and her views are actually pretty nuanced, but we can't have that, apparently. www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/She never said that trans women are dangerous predators. Good grief. She has concerns that when you allow any man to identify as a woman because he says he feels like one and give him access to women-only safe spaces, that it could open the door to predators. Let's not pretend this never happens. There are cases of men who have been convicted of RAPING WOMEN and then saying they are trans and being placed in women's prisons and then going on to sexually assault women there. This is not a case of trans women being dangerous predators because these rapists are not really trans. There is nothing simple about these issues and there are important discussions to be had, but this is made impossible when anyone who tries to raise concerns is branded as an evil transphobe. Why can't we resist placing people into black and white categories of good and evil anyway? The vast majority of people are shades of grey. Rowling has given so much money to charity, not less than 160 million dollars, that she lost her billionaire status. Yet to some she is just a TERF with no redeeming qualities. Exactly. Some of her views have really got blown out of proportion. It's become a subject that is impossible to talk about reasonably. |
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Post by sputnik on Apr 1, 2022 16:09:17 GMT
^^^^
that's very true.
i admit i'm far from being an expert but for an issue like trans athletes, it's not as simple as saying trans men are men, trans women are women. you can't just deny the effect of testosterone, or of male puberty on a body, and i kind of fall on the side of the recent WaPo Editorial Board piece that came out against the transgender athlete bans that so many states are adopting and said that a better and more practocsl solution is for individual sports
to set the thresholds, etc (testosterone levels, etc.) as needed, including at high school level.
and i think a lot more research needs to be done on but yeah the first thing is being able to talk about it without the extremes losing their shit - from the republicans who want to make it hard for trans people to exist, to the overcorrection on the left that now makes any kind of nuanced conversation impossible.
that said some of rowlings' points about hormones kind of reek of concern trolling. like, sure, there are side-effects, all medications have side-effects, but it's up to each patient and their doctor to determine if that's the right course of action, and i'm sure a lot of trans kids and adults are more than willing to accept the risks that come with hormone treatment, for a chance to live authentically. does she feel the same about the side effects of chemo, or birth control pills?
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Post by Pixie on Apr 1, 2022 17:19:19 GMT
She wrote a long essay on the subject on her blog, and her views are actually pretty nuanced, but we can't have that, apparently. www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/She never said that trans women are dangerous predators. Good grief. She has concerns that when you allow any man to identify as a woman because he says he feels like one and give him access to women-only safe spaces, that it could open the door to predators. Let's not pretend this never happens. There are cases of men who have been convicted of RAPING WOMEN and then saying they are trans and being placed in women's prisons and then going on to sexually assault women there. This is not a case of trans women being dangerous predators because these rapists are not really trans. There is nothing simple about these issues and there are important discussions to be had, but this is made impossible when anyone who tries to raise concerns is branded as an evil transphobe. Why can't we resist placing people into black and white categories of good and evil anyway? The vast majority of people are shades of grey. Rowling has given so much money to charity, not less than 160 million dollars, that she lost her billionaire status. Yet to some she is just a TERF with no redeeming qualities. It is the exact plot of her latest book though, which perpetuates the view that trans women will use "women spaces" to assault cis women. I also remember one of her tweet that literally said "the penised individual who assaulted me is a woman" (she did not meant "me" as in literally her, she was talking about that prison problem you mention - which largely ignores the fact that transwomen placed in men's prison are a million times (sorry, don't have the exact percentage in head, but it's really high) more likely to get assaulted, than they are to assault women in women's prisons. Trans people are much more likely to be the victims of sexual assault. |
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Post by lindsaywhit on Apr 1, 2022 17:51:10 GMT
I really appreciate this conversation.
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Post by sputnik on Apr 1, 2022 17:57:42 GMT
same.
i have to say though, i will NEVER understand the very real fear people - mostly women - seem to have about getting attacked by random men in bathrooms. is this a thing that happened/happens? i think it might date back to the stranger danger hysteria because it's mostly boomers who have this fear and transmit it down through the generations. it's weird so many people who are genuinely concerned about this. i remember my mother when we were growing up if we were going to use a restrooom, and she couldn't be there, she would make my brothers use the women's bathroom and my sister and i couldn't go alone. i think these types of hysteria contribute to making people even more irrationally scared in life and absolutely shitty at calculating actual risk/danger. i know we all have irrational fears but i feel like some people really have a loooot of them, like my friend who was actually worried DC alley rats were going to attack his baby if they used the back door of their house to bring the baby/stroller in which is a lot easier than going up the front stoop and his wife and i just laughed hysterically the minute he said it.
your kids aren't at risk of random men in skirts using ladies' bathrooms if trans people are allowed to use the bathroom of their choice. they're way more in danger from the people you don't think twice about, friends' parents, coaches, teachers, relatives, even their own parents and stepparents.
and like pixie said, trans people are far more at risk from others, especially cis men who let's face it are the real risk all of us face lol. But it's not that they're gonna wear a dress that's a problem, it's that they're cis men but i guess people are in denial about that and would rather pin it on lgbtq+ people.
so yeah, that part i think it's bizarre and just weird but i don't agree with trans activists stance that any discussion of the biological sex is transphobic or that acknowledging that biological sex exists and has real implications on our lives and has to be taken into account in some contexts means you hate trans people.
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Post by Pixie on Apr 1, 2022 18:21:56 GMT
same. i have to say though, i will NEVER understand the very real fear people - mostly women - seem to have about getting attacked in bathrooms. i think it might date back to the stranger danger hysteria because it's mostly boomers who have this fear and transmit it down through the generations but i know so many people who are actually genuinely concerned about this. i remember my mother when we were growing up if we were going to use a restrooom, and she couldn't be there, she would make my brothers use the women's bathroom and my sister and i couldn't go alone. i think these types of hysteria contribute to making people even more irrationally scared in life and absolutely shitty at calculating actual risk/danger. like, your kids aren't really at risk from a stranger molesting or kidnapping them, that likelihood is soooo low. they're way more in danger from the people you don't think twice about, friends' parents, relatives, even their own parents. Exactly. If JKR is SO concerned about women's safety, she should stop focusing on transwomen, and start focusing on the dangers presented by our partners (Don't know about where you guys live, but in France, EVERY OTHER DAY, a woman is killed by her CIS partner or ex partner. Every other day) - also our male colleagues, employers, friends ... According to stats from about everywhere, we are also more likely to be assaulted in our own home, or at a friend's, or a place we are familiar with. I actually didn't check, but I wonder what percentage of sexual assault actually takes place in fucking toilets. It's also fucking ignorant. Granted, every person and every transition is different, but a (now former) friend of mine is married to a trans woman. Her wife has been on blockers and oestrogen for now ... 2 years? I think. Well, TMO, but her penis has shrunk to its pre-puberty size, her balls are barely existent anymore, and she cannot, absolutely cannot have an erection. How is she supposed to assault anybody with her penis? (I mean, she could definitely assault someone with fingers or an object, but that is not what JKR is focusing on with her weird penis obsession) And also, AS IF men needed to claim being trans to assault us, like seriously. They can just assault us as they are. Agreed. It also depends on the context I guess, because people are also more than body parts (TMO again, but a friend of mine in highschool was born without a vagina ... is she not a woman? I am missing one ovary - where did that fucker go, no idea XD - and I don't menstruate - still a woman, so just to say, being a woman maybe is more than "you have a vagina and a uterus") |
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Post by ravenna on Apr 1, 2022 19:29:53 GMT
She wrote a long essay on the subject on her blog, and her views are actually pretty nuanced, but we can't have that, apparently. www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/She never said that trans women are dangerous predators. Good grief. She has concerns that when you allow any man to identify as a woman because he says he feels like one and give him access to women-only safe spaces, that it could open the door to predators. Let's not pretend this never happens. There are cases of men who have been convicted of RAPING WOMEN and then saying they are trans and being placed in women's prisons and then going on to sexually assault women there. This is not a case of trans women being dangerous predators because these rapists are not really trans. There is nothing simple about these issues and there are important discussions to be had, but this is made impossible when anyone who tries to raise concerns is branded as an evil transphobe. Why can't we resist placing people into black and white categories of good and evil anyway? The vast majority of people are shades of grey. Rowling has given so much money to charity, not less than 160 million dollars, that she lost her billionaire status. Yet to some she is just a TERF with no redeeming qualities. It is the exact plot of her latest book though, which perpetuates the view that trans women will use "women spaces" to assault cis women. I also remember one of her tweet that literally said "the penised individual who assaulted me is a woman" (she did not meant "me" as in literally her, she was talking about that prison problem you mention - which largely ignores the fact that transwomen placed in men's prison are a million times (sorry, don't have the exact percentage in head, but it's really high) more likely to get assaulted, than they are to assault women in women's prisons. Trans people are much more likely to be the victims of sexual assault. Have you actually read the book, though? I have not, but I read a blog post by a woman saying she was expecting to be outraged but when she read the book, she found that it was barely mentioned and it had to do with cross-dressing, which is, as I understand it, not the same thing as being trans. I don't know. I don't feel I can judge without reading the book. I'm not saying there is a large contigent of foxes pretending to be chickens to gain access to the henhouse. What I am saying is that men who have been convicted of raping women should NOT be given the benefit of the doubt.
EVERYONE needs to be protected from sexual assault. Trans women should not be housed in men's prisons where they are vulnerable to rape. Trans men should not be in men's prisons either though, because they are surely just as vulnerable. And women should not be locked up with convicted rapists. There must be some solutions, but I don't know what they can be. No one has all the answers, which is why free discussion is necessary. Regarding the risks of hormones, there was a medical body (sorry I can't remember which), that found it could not be determined that the benefits of giving puberty blockers to children did not outweigh the risks. In response the well-known Karolinska Institute in Sweden has stopped giving them to children except as part of clinical trials, so there are genuine concerns there as well. Like I said, it's complicated. I have no doubt there are people for whom medical transition is the only way they can live comfortably in their own bodies. But there are also people like Keira Bell, who found that, in the end, she was really just struggling to come to terms with being gay and now has profound regrets about medically transitioning. I don't know how anyone can read stories about her and others like her and fail to be moved. We need to understand the root of each individual's dysphoria instead of assuming there is a one-size-fits-all solution for everyone.
I do agree the risk of bathroom assaults is exaggerated. But Rowling is a survivor of sexual assault, so I understand where she's coming from.
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Post by greysfang on Apr 1, 2022 19:31:51 GMT
Lumpy, transphobic hag.
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Post by Pixie on Apr 1, 2022 20:02:51 GMT
It is the exact plot of her latest book though, which perpetuates the view that trans women will use "women spaces" to assault cis women. I also remember one of her tweet that literally said "the penised individual who assaulted me is a woman" (she did not meant "me" as in literally her, she was talking about that prison problem you mention - which largely ignores the fact that transwomen placed in men's prison are a million times (sorry, don't have the exact percentage in head, but it's really high) more likely to get assaulted, than they are to assault women in women's prisons. Trans people are much more likely to be the victims of sexual assault. Have you actually read the book, though? I have not, but I read a blog post by a woman saying she was expecting to be outraged but when she read the book, she found that it was barely mentioned and it had to do with cross-dressing, which is, as I understand it, not the same thing as being trans. I don't know. I don't feel I can judge without reading the book. I actually did ^^ If you're into detective stories, it's not the worst, it's not revolutionary or anything, but it's a decent read if you're on holidays lying on the beach XD The culprit is indeed a cross-dresser, which is different from a transwoman, but the fact is, in many people's minds, it is "a man in a skirt" in both cases, she just plays with the ambiguity here. She knows what kind of clichés it will enforce. And the fact is, the fact that she constantly tweets and talks about "men in skirts" (sorry, "penised individuals") being harmful to ciswomen perpetuates a myth that is harmful to transpeople who are already marginalised and way more likely to be assaulted than cis people. That is why, despite all the good she may do otherwise, I will boycott anything that brings her money because right now she is also using her massive wealth, influence and platforms to further harm an already at risk community. I mean, you're a writer, you can write anything, you have her imagination, and that's the plot you choose? This isn't an innocent choice. Not to mention the pen name under which this book is written is an anti-LGBT conversion therapist ... she denies it is related to that man, but out of all the names you could have chosen you go with this one? I mean, come on ... What I am saying is that men who are convicted of raping women should NOT be given the benefit of the doubt.
EVERYONE needs to be protected from sexual assault. Trans women should not be housed in men's prisons where they are vulnerable to rape. Trans men should not be in men's prisons either though, because they are surely just as vulnerable. I don't know what solutions there can be. No one has all the answers, which is why free discussion is necessary.Honestly I also don't know what would be best. In Sweden you now need to be 16 to get hormones - Apparently (more trials are ongoing from the latest news I could find) children who received hormones presented risks to develop cancers, some bone disease (didn't know the word in Swedish XD), infertility. (From what I remember from last year when this made the news) I'm no doctor or anything, I wonder if it's so grave to go through puberty and take the hormones after, can't they reverse the effects of puberty? I follow a transman on TikTok (I know, don't judge me XD) who documents his transition, and the hormones make his voice drop, his muscle mass increase, his hairs grow ... so I don't know, would it have made a difference to not go through puberty and take those hormones as a child? EDIT >> fuck I didn't think that through, I hadn't thought about breasts removal, Adam's apple, jawline, height ... fock. That is messy  Must be so hard for parents, not knowing if what they're doing is what's best for their kids or not (I mean, I guess that is the definition of parenting anyways) I mostly feel sorry for everybody born with the wrong body, because there's no one fits all solution, and what they're experiencing can't be easy, and I feel they really don't need the fearmongering. |
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Post by ravenna on Apr 1, 2022 21:05:10 GMT
Have you actually read the book, though? I have not, but I read a blog post by a woman saying she was expecting to be outraged but when she read the book, she found that it was barely mentioned and it had to do with cross-dressing, which is, as I understand it, not the same thing as being trans. I don't know. I don't feel I can judge without reading the book. I actually did ^^ If you're into detective stories, it's not the worst, it's not revolutionary or anything, but it's a decent read if you're on holidays lying on the beach XD
I actually have no interest in her work other than the 7 original HP books, and even then she drove me crazy with her overuse of adverbs. Fair enough.
I am under the impression that it's much easier to pass as an adult if you haven't gone through puberty as your birth sex. Balancing that fact against the health risks of puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones, as well as the risk of regret, is what makes the issue so complicated. We need more research and more discussion. And more investigation with regard to individuals. The aforementioned Keira Bell had a mere three hour-long sessions at a gender identity clinic before being put on puberty blockers.
I hear you on that. It is obviously a painful experience.
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chaz
Full Member
BANNED
Posts: 294
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Post by chaz on Apr 2, 2022 4:22:23 GMT
It's a real phenomenon, though. For some reason, a certain category of feminists reject trans-women, and some even consider them men who are trying to coopt the feminist movement. And then so-called TERFers accuse other people of committing a slur against THEM. I'm blown away by the idea that a tampon ad could be considered "TERFy". I'm pro trans, however I'm also pro women. Women have been called "gestational units" instead of pregnant women, breast feeding has been replaced with "chest feeding". This is what I'm calling bullshit on. |
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Post by daphodil on Apr 2, 2022 18:29:44 GMT
Her charitable contributions do not give her a special podium. If she refuses to believe that many people have a special bond with her work and her opinions may not be accepted by all, nuanced or not, then there may be consequences and broad-brush strokes applied to her. So I choose to love her work but have no time for her opinions. That does not mean I don't understand or that I feel she has no redeeming qualities.
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